Author Topic: Sabbath Montreux '70  (Read 1750 times)

Supernaut

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Sabbath Montreux '70
« on: January 27, 2014, 03:34:15 AM »
A little while back got my hands on this soundboard boot, This thing is freakin great great, rippin versions on Fairies wear boots and Behind the wall of Sleep. Mr Ward is on fire for this set.

I've done some investigation,  it's labled as 8-31-70, I see on Joe's site they also played 4-27-70, I'm wondering if this is the earlier gig as all the Paranoid material, with the exception of Paranoid, have alt lyrics, well FWB is basically the same with and added extra vers that's a repeat of the last verse. War pigs has the "Walpurgis" lyrics, Hand of Doom is way different and Iron man has a few diff lines in it.

It seems to me that the August show was only a couple of weeks before the release of the album so they had to have those lyrics buttoned up by then

also I wonder if this show is incomplete, as there is no "Black Sabbath" played

sabbatology

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Re: Sabbath Montreux '70
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2014, 09:15:41 AM »
Maybe you already have this but below is the research done by some Sabbath traders when this surfaced.  Also, if you happen to somehow have a lossless version then you would be a hero of the Sabbatraders...!!!



1
The Riddle is solved
Unknown 1970 Black Sabbath soundboard recording obviously originates
from a show played on 1970-08-31 at Montreux Casino
As I concluded in my PDF article "Discussion of possible dates and venues of the recently
surfaced Black Sabbath 1970 soundboard recording"
<http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2KKY55DN>, it was most likely that the newly-surfaced
recording originated from one of the following dates:
1970-06-28 (or maybe 1970-07-03) Wallon [which is the club's name], Ciney, Belgium
1970-08-31 Montreux Casino, Montreux, Switzerland
1970-09-20 L'Olympia (The Olympia Theater) Paris, France
1970-09-24 Lausanne, Switzerland
1970-10-02 Liege, Belgium
After I had published the PDF article, a number of persons listened to the audience chatter and
announcer's statements between the songs in that recording and gave their opinions, apparently
solving the riddle where and when this amazing show was recorded. Thanks a lot to these great
people! I will quote their statements below and subsequently discuss their implications. Special
thanks to LuciferBurns and amaroops for establishing the contacts and asking their mates for help,
respectively. In fact, I just compiled the information gathered by them.
1) "After listening carefully to all in between chatters (when any) I can unfortunately not tell you
anything about the origins of this recording. It sounds like no one spoke a word of French that night
except for the very last words. Judging by the accent of this person, I would say he was not French
though. Certainly not an English guy speaking French with a strong accent. Maybe slightly Swiss,
I'm not sure. Hope you eventually solve the riddle!"
(This person may be quoted using the nickname "violethour".)
2) "I have downloaded the show, red your article, check this excellent site <http://www.blacksabbath.
com/tourdates/index.html> and of course listen to the show carefully. Unfortunately, I
cannot add any more details except that I would confirm that the guy who speaks French does not
have a Swiss accent. Indeed rather Belgium (more than French) but it is only a guess as people
living in France but near the Belgium boarder have almost the same accent.
I just want to point something out (I hope it will not add a bit more confusion): […] People don't
always stay where they are born: you may move for a person you love or for a professional
reasons... I mean suppose the show took place in Paris but the announcer could come from Lille
for instance and have an "almost" Belgium accent rather than a Parisian one.
I have tried to catch a conversation in the audience but it almost impossible to understand
anything. Only the announcer's voice can help. I don't have the technical equipment and
knowledge to try to isolate a conversation from the rest by removing tape hiss, music... to keep just
a conversation and amplify it. Not sure that would help a lot actually."
(This person may be quoted using the nickname "Kristof31".)
3) "Transcript at the end of track 4:
Il faut attendre un moment parce que ils ont cassé leeee... la batterie... the base...
Announcer: We have to wait a moment, because they have broken theeee... the drums... the
base...
...
Man: "Hoi" = Hi
--- cut
Woman: "Wa(a)s" = What
The Announcer speaks with quite an accent - could be Lausanne/Geneva (but also some non
French country like Belgium is not impossible) - I have friends round Lausanne/Geneva who speak
like that..
2
But what I’m 100% certain is, that the man Man/Woman speak definitely Swiss German (one can
hear it very clearly in the woman's accent - could be the region around Berne).
So it is possible that the concert took place in Montreux or Lausanne (French speaking part of
Switzerland - definitively not Zurich/Basel).
If so, then it s most likely that it is Montreux, because a lot of people from the German speaking
part go to the festival (as BS also played in Basel and Zurich it is not likely that they go to
Lausanne)... - but as always - just a combination of different puzzle pieces - I am curious if
someday the taper will tell us the real story..."
(This person may be quoted using the nickname "Swiss Cheese".)
4) "Yeah, I listened to five songs, and I would say, at the end of Behind the Wall, I can clearly hear:
IL FAUT ATTENDRE UN MOMENT PARCE QU’ILS ONT CASSE LE, LA BATTERIE... (and two
more words, apparently not in French).
Of course that's French language, and if the guy speaks French, that's an audience who speaks
French, but the guy is not French, that's sure, because it sounds more like a Swiss guy from the
German part.
(I think) a Swiss guy with French language doesn't speak like him.
And one very important thing, he makes an error, an IMPORTANT ERROR, he sais 'Cassé le, la
batterie'). In French everything is male or feminine, typical French people say 'LA BATTERIE',
without confusing anything like he does. He says first 'LE', then 'LA', 'la batterie'. No French person
would make this error. So, for me, it's possible the guy is from Switzerland, but from German part.
People from Germany, Holland, UK, Vlaams Belgium, German-speaking Switzerland make errors
like this between male and feminine stuff, not if you are from France, Walonie Belgium or Romane
Switzerland.
'LE' = male
'LA' = feminine
Of course in Switzerland, if you speak in French LANGUAGE to the audience, I think it's not in
BASEL and ZURICH, because in that case the guy would speak GERMAN. But, of course,
Montreux, or Lausanne, that's the right choice, If I need to speak to the audience, French is the
best way.
Of course the guy has not a Belgium feeling in his voice, nor a French one. But in Switzerland,
guys from the German part can speak French, German, English, Dutch, Italian easily, they are able
to speak a lot of languages. So I think speaking in French in Basel or Zurich is ABSOLUTELY
impossible, or the guy is stupid! Or mad, or doesn't understand nothing in Switzerland, and I think
the audience would get angry in such a case.
Montreux seems really the best place for this show."
(This person may be quoted using the nickname "Thierry".)
5) "I have sent yesterday all the links to my mate FinkPloyd49 and... he has probably identified the
origin of the document. [...] [He] is older than me […]. He has a lot of experience in taping shows
and has seen a lot of concert in Paris when he lives but loads in England as well [...]. He wondered
if he saw the band in Paris in 1970. He didn't (his first time was in Sheffield in 1971) he is almost
sure that the French speaking voice you can hear is Claude Nobs one. The guy used to organise
the Montreux festivals.
You can compare his voice in this document from 1978 (in the beginning):
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h6vj0m1144>
I didn't hear any Swiss accent in the BS document but once again it is hard to say. Not all the
Swiss people have a strong accent. I have even met some myself with almost no accent."
(This person may be quoted using the nickname "Kristof31".)
6) "Well, I mean Claude Nobs is the guy who says at the end of the show "Merci encore à Black
Sabbath"; the more I listen to him, the more I think I am right; he might also be the guy who speaks
of the bass drum; I don't think there were several people speaking on stage, but I know in the 70s
Claude Nobs used to be very present on stage; he behaved like a friend with the musicians.
You have a sampler of Nobs voice here at the beginning of a J. Tull show:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h6vj0m1144>"
3
(This person may be quoted using the nickname "FinkPloyd49".)
"I asked two great music maniacs, they listened to the show, and they said: Yes, that's the voice of
the Montreux manager Mr. Nobs."
(This person may be quoted using the nickname "Thierry".)
"WEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
NOOOOOOOOOOOW I have the right material. The SECOND guy is
DEFINITIVELYYYYYYYYYYYY Claude Nobs - 1000000 %%%%% sure - I have heard this change
French/English and 'merci encore' :-) many times, when he wants to stop the applause...
BTW, both tapers who go a lot to Montreux also confirmed..."
(This person may be quoted using the nickname "Judge Free".)
Theoretically, of course, it might also be possible that the show took place in a different value
where Claude Nobs appeared on stage as some kind of 'guest announcer' or even organised the
show. However, Montreux seemed already a good guess BEFORE FinkPloyd49 first recognised
Claude Nobs' voice (see first statements quoted above). Another option might be that Sabbath
played another show in Montreux in the same year. Nevertheless, I think this is also very
improbable because Montreux Casino is a rather famous concert venue - one would very probably
have heard of that show. So I think we can claim now that, with very high probability, this great
show took place at Montreux Casino on 1970-08-31.
Though I feel quite sure about the conclusions drawn above, I have to mention that there is one
single find actually contradicting them, i.e. a set list of the 1970-08-31 show at Montreux Casino
that can be found on the internet: <http://www.setlist.fm/setlist/black-sabbath/1970/casino-demontreux-
montreux-switzerland-33d5d499.html>. Actually, as you can see, this set list differs from
the set list of our newly-surfaced 1970 soundboard recording: the order of songs is different, and
the song “Black Sabbath”, which is actually missing in our recording, is included in the set list.
However, this set list looks rather strange to me, as “Rat Salad” is listed after “Behind the Wall of
Sleep“ – I never heard of a show where Sabbath did that. In fact, as far as I know, “Rat Salad” was
always played after “Hand of Doom”. If anybody wants to research the origin and accurateness of
that set list, please tell us your results – in this moment, anyway, I think that the evidence for our
recording to be sourced from the 1970-08-31 show at Montreux Casino is strong enough to cast
doubt on the accurateness of that set list.
Finally, again, who ever has more information concerning this amazing recording and the
questions discussed above, or even might actually have been present personally at that very show,
please do not hesitate to inform the Sabbath community about it. “1970sabbathlive”, who was the
one to bring the recording to my and others’ attention on YouTube (thanks to him again!), has a
YouTube channel, and since he expressed from the beginning how much he would like to know
where and when the show was recorded, I think it might be a good place to spread and discuss
such information:
<http://www.youtube.com/user/1970sabbathlive>.
Megalomaniac,
2010-12-20



sabbatology

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Re: Sabbath Montreux '70
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2014, 09:23:50 AM »
And here's the first article that describes finding the ring of power....


2010-12-05
Discussion of possible dates and venues of the recently surfaced
Black Sabbath 1970 soundboard recording
written by Megalomaniac
Recently, a previously unknown Black Sabbath live soundboard recording appeared at
YouTube, uploaded by the user “1970sabbathlive”. He, in turn, had originally found the
recording in MP3 format at <http://captainsdead.com/black-sabbath-live-sometime-in-
1970.html>. (The download links at CaptainsDead are not working any more, and the person
who originally uploaded the recording there informed me that he does not have the show in
lossless quality.) Although “1970sabbathlive” says that he is not really a Sabbath collector, he
soon realised how amazing his find was. Indeed, the newly-surfaced recording is definitely
from a different show than all recordings we know so far. Shortly after having uploaded the
recording to YouTube, “1970sabbathlive” also uploaded a FLAC version to the Sabbath
section of the “Deep Purple Hub”. That is exactly the version you can download with the link
given above. It is important to note that this FLAC version does not have lossless lineage:
“1970sabbathlive” had decoded the original MP3 to WAV, then slightly cleaned it up with
Audacity and encoded it to FLAC format. I will keep on trying to find out where the
CaptainsDead uploader himself got his MP3 version from, but by now, this lossy-lineaged
FLAC is the best we can get. And that is really much: This soundboard recording is one of the
most amazing Black Sabbath bootlegs EVER! It is not just one of the VERY few 1970 Black
Sabbath recordings in circulation; it simply sounds GREAT, indeed much better than the
famous “Paris 1970” recording (which seems to be in fact 1970-10-03 Brussel, see discussion
at <http://www.black-sabbath.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31484&highlight=paris>).
Now, which show does this recording actually originate from? We are not yet able to really
answer this question, but we can make some reasonable guesses. There are some indicators.
First, the playlist: Obviously, this is a recording from the first album’s or the Paronoid tour,
since there are only songs of the first album and Paranoid included (and during the first
album’s tour, the band already started to play some songs from Paranoid). However, the order
of tracks in the newly-surfaced recording is quite different from the 1970-06-26 West Berlin,
the 1970-10-03 Brussel (“Paris 1970”) and the 1970-11-27 San Francisco shows (and the
tracks played do also significantly differ from any known show from a later date). Indeed, the
playlists of these three other shows also differ significantly from each other. So, actually the
comparison of playlists does not help much in this case by now. However, one fact seems
striking: The song “Black Sabbath” is not included in the newly-surfaced recording. We do
not know if the recording is just incomplete or if the song was actually not played that night
for some special reason – like having less time to play, maybe because the gig might have
been part of some festival with many other bands playing. Anybody who feels able to further
research this issue?
Second, some clues might be found in what we actually here on the recording: languages
spoken in between songs, Ozzy’s announcements to the audience and so on. Here everybody
of you might contribute by carefully listening the recording, particularly in between the songs.
What seems to be clear by now, is that it is a French-speaking venue – given that French is
speaken by announcers and/or roadies in the very end (“merci beaucoup”) and after “Behind
the Wall of Sleep” (probably explaining that the bass drum is being repaired). According to
<www.sabbathlive.com> (R.I.P.), the only French-speaking countries toured by Black
Sabbath in that era were France, Switzerland and Belgium; venues played in those countries
were:
1970-06-28 (or maybe 1970-07-03) Wallon [which is the club's name], Ciney, Belgium
1970-08-21 Jazz Bilzen '70 & Humo VIII (Bilzen Blues And Jazz Festival), Vlaams, Belgium
[but this part of Belgium is not French-speaking, as far as I believe to understand from
Wikipedia? Can anybody confirm this?]
1970-08-31 Montreux Casino, Montreux, Switzerland
1970-09-20 L'Olympia (The Olympia Theater) Paris, France
1970-09-22 Bâle (Basel), Switzerland [unlikely, because German is the main language in that
region]
1970-09-23 Zurich, Switzerland [unlikely, because German is the main language in that
region]
1970-09-24 Lausanne, Switzerland
1970-10-02 Liege, Belgium
1970-10-03 Brussels, Belgium [unlikely, if we assume that the "Paris 1970" video was in fact
recorded 1970-10-03 in Brussel, see link above]
1970-12-19 L'Olympia (The Olympia Theater) Paris [possible, if we assume that the "Paris
1970" video was in fact recorded 1970-10-03 in Brussel, see link above]
If we delete all those dates and venues that are unlikely for language or other reasons given
above, this leaves us with:
1970-06-28 (or maybe 1970-07-03) Wallon [which is the club's name], Ciney, Belgium
1970-08-31 Montreux Casino, Montreux, Switzerland
1970-09-20 L'Olympia (The Olympia Theater) Paris, France
1970-09-24 Lausanne, Switzerland
1970-10-02 Liege, Belgium
1970-12-19 L'Olympia (The Olympia Theater) Paris [possible, if we assume that the "Paris
1970" video was in fact recorded 1970-10-03 in Brussel, see link above]
I am still hoping that some French-speaking person might be ably to identify the dialect of the
language spoken in the recording, providing us more evidence concerning the question in
which of the three possible countries it was probably recorded. One YouTube user
commented to “Behind The Wall Of Sleep” that he or she believes it must be Basel, Zurich or
Lausanne (22nd, 23rd and 24th September, respectively) because of the announcer at the end
of the song talking French with a slight accent and somebody from the audience talking
German before or after “N.I.B.” “However, actually I (coming from Germany) do not hear
anything said in German before and after that track. On the other hand, my ears are not always
the best, and I did not take the time to carefully listen to every minute of the recording – does
anybody of you here any German spoken in this recording? My mate Bolandos at the Deep
Purple Hub, who comes from Belgium, is practically sure that the person who speaks French
does NOT have a Swiss accent – so according to him the recording should rather originate
from Belgium or France. Thus, we seem to have contradicting opinions here. Bolandos also
pointed out the fact that some dates and venues where Sabbath played in that era might be
unknown and thus not be listed on <www.sabbathlive.com>.
Third, the lyrics: I roughly compared the lyrics of all the songs originating from the Paranoid
album to those played in other recordings, because it is a well-known fact that Ozzy sang very
different lyrics in the older recordings of some of those songs – particularly in “War Pigs”,
which was first called “Walpurgis”. I really did not compare everything very carefully, so feel
free to listen to the recordings yourself and correct me. Here is the results:
1970-06-26
West Berlin
1970-XX-XX
Unknown SBD
1970-10-03
Brussel
(“Paris 1970”)
1970-11-27
San Francisco
Paranoid very different
from album
version
album version,
except one verse
album version album version
War Pigs “Walpurgis”
version
“Walpurgis”
version
album version,
then one
“Walpurgis”
verse
album version
Fairies Wear
Boots
(not included) album version,
except: „all of a
sudden I got a
fright“
album version,
except: „all of a
sudden I got a
fright“
album version:
„suddenly I got a
fright“
Iron Man very different
from album
version
very different
from album
version
album version album version
Hand of Doom e.g. second line:
“now you know
the score/you
won’t trip no
more”
e.g. second line:
“now you know
the score/you
won’t trip no
more”
e.g. second line:
“now you know
the scene/your
skin starts
turning green”
e.g. second line:
“now you wait
your turn/you
know there's no
return”
It might be interesting to note that, according to this comparison, the theory about the “Paris
1970” video actually being recorded 1970-10-03 in Brussel (and not 1970-12-19 in Paris) is
quite plausible, because the lyrics of that show still include some of the “old” lines, while on
the 1970-11-27 San Francisco recordings they are mostly identical to the versions recorded on
the Paranoid album. Concerning the recently found unknown soundboard recording, it seems
obvious to me that is must have been recorded after the West Berlin and before the Brussels
show (which is the reason why I put it in between those recordings in the table above). More
precisely, it might have been recorded rather shortly after the West Berlin show, because War
Pigs and Iron Man were still played in their “older versions” on both shows; however, the
“Paranoid” version on the unknown recording is much more similar to the album version than
the version played in West Berlin. I want to return now to the list of possible dates and venues
of the newly-surfaced unknown soundboard recording. If I delete the 1970-12-19 Paris option
(because on that rather late date, the lyrics of the songs from the Paranoid album should have
been much more similar to the album versions), this leaves us with:
1970-06-28 (or maybe 1970-07-03) Wallon [which is the club's name], Ciney, Belgium
1970-08-31 Montreux Casino, Montreux, Switzerland
1970-09-20 L'Olympia (The Olympia Theater) Paris, France
1970-09-24 Lausanne, Switzerland
1970-10-02 Liege, Belgium
I think the 1970-10-02 option is also rather unlikely, because that was only one day before the
Brussels show, in which case it would be strange that some of the lyrics (particularly those of
War Pigs and Iron Man) differ so much. I agree with Bolandos, who brought up the 1970-06-
28 Ciney option in the first place, that Ciney is a rather strong guess, because in some
respects, the lyrics on the unknown soundboard recording are very similar to those played on
the show in West Berlin. On <www.sabbathlive.com> (R.I.P.), it is said that sometimes 1970-
07-03 is mentioned instead of 1970-06-28 as the date of the Ciney show; however, in either
case, the Ciney show took place very shortly after the West Berlin show. On the other hand,
the fact that the lyrics of the song Paranoid significantly differ between both recordings might
suggest that the unknown show took place on a later date, like 1970-08-31 in Montreux. The
rather big differences between the Brussels recording and the unknown recording seem to
suggest that the Montreux is more likely than 1970-09-20 Paris, 1970-09-24 Lausanne or
1970-10-02 Liege. After all, personally I think that 1970-06-28 (or 1970-07-03) Ciney and
1970-08-31 Montreux are the most probable guesses so far, but as you see, there is a lot of
speculation involved. Concerning the comparison of lyrics, for example, the differences
between the recently-surfaced unknown recording and other shows might also be caused by a
higher level of drug-consumption on the part of Ozzy on that specific night.
I have to say that very much of the information I used in this article was given to me by other
people. Since I want to spread the article as quickly as possible, I will not give credit to all of
these persons here, because I have not had the time to ask all of them for permission. So I will
only mention those who I already asked. I want to give the biggest “thank you”, of course, to
“1970sabbathlive”, who initiated all this by sharing the recording at YouTube and the Deep
Purple Hub; also a big thank you to my mate Bolandos at the Deep Purple Hub for listening to
the recording, giving his opinion about the dialect and suggesting 1970-06-28 (or 1970-07-03)
Ciney as possible date and venue, and to blacksabfan at YouTube for information on dates
and venues as well as for being patient with me. Also to Phobos for everyting. Last but not
least many thanks to all the others (who will hopefully know that this “thank you” means
them – I just, as I said above, do not want to publish your nicknames here without asking you)
who helped me a lot at the Deep Purple Hub, YouTube, Dime, and CaptainsDead by giving
me information, opinions and ideas or commenting my thoughts about this recording. These
are great days for the Black Sabbath bootleg community; spread and enjoy this recording! (It
should go without saying that it should never be sold, but always shared for free!)
Finally, who ever has more information or even evidence about the date and venue of the
show where this was recorded, or even might actually have been present personally at that
very show, please do not hesitate to inform the community about it. “1970sabbathlive” has a
channel on YouTube, and since he expressed from the beginning how much he would like to
know where and when the show was recorded, I think it might be a good place to spread and
discuss such information:
<http://www.youtube.com/user/1970sabbathlive>.

Supernaut

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Re: Sabbath Montreux '70
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2014, 02:13:00 PM »
Thanx for the info, but maybe just maybe these guys are over thinking this?  I don't disagree with their detective work, They seem locked into that spring/summer tour. I did see on Siglers site they played Montreux in April 1970, I guess if you look at it  from a simplistic angle, The Paranoid album was released { of all the references i could find} Sept 18 1970,{ so 8-31 date was after the recording session was done} so that one would guess that the actual recording, {according to Geezer took 3 weeks to complete} would've taken place sometime in June or July on '70, with the bulk of the time after that for post production on the album, mixing artwork etc...
     
     I read a book, a few yrs back, about all of Sabbath recording sessions, { went album by album}  though I dont have the book in front of me I remember from stories in the book, that in early '70 { Feb through May}  they booked studio time between gigs to work on the new material.  According to both Iommi and Butler  the music came along pretty quickly, with alot of the ideas for Paranoid came shortly after the recording of the first album. Geezer said they cut demos of the rough tracks  and that's when he reworked the lyrics for  the final recording sessions.

     Now I think there are 2 possibilities for this show, that this soundboard copy come from earlier in the tour, or Ozzy was just so fucked up during the later show dates he sings the "old" lyrics cause that's all he can remember, but  the boots on the '70 tour after the album released, Ozzy sings pretty much what's on the album.

as far as "lossless" not sure what that means really { as I'm not an anal audiophile like some of these guys out on net}, the copy I got is pristine, no hiss or noise and is crystal clear, like your sitting in the front row you can hear every little thing going on stage between songs.The only "nitpick" I would have is Geezer a bit low in the mix, If there is a way to make this available to any who want here in this forum I'll gladly offer it up, over all it's a smokin show and Geezer and Ward are locked in so tight!!! Ward is on fuckin fire in a Vol 4 kinda way at one point having to stop the show for a bit cause he broke his bass drum pedal. A young Sabbath looking to blow the roof off the place  and they succeed.   

sabbatology

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Re: Sabbath Montreux '70
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2014, 03:28:30 PM »
Yea, this recording pretty much reigns supreme in the pre '75 category here at the compound.

HK

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Re: Sabbath Montreux '70
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2014, 09:44:29 PM »
Anybody that says this is borderline trekkie-speak is fucked.  I mean, completely fucked. 

Audio Sasquatch. 

sabbatology

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Re: Sabbath Montreux '70
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2014, 10:04:26 AM »
My friend, your post tested as BOSSY.  Will you please not dirty the public talking pool with this less than perfect prose?